One reader, by the name of Sean, has recently raised several excellent questions:
What is Morality? Is it a spiritual goal? How does morality relate to any given religion? What is the "fruit" of religous life as manifested in our daily existence?
Here is the letter:
Dear Sitaram,
I have read some of your posts in the christnet newsgroups, and have just spent about an hour on your website.
I am not a Christian, though as a layman I have come to be aware of a great deal of it, though definitely not with your level of learning. I do believe in a Creator, though I know very little about him via personal experience.
In glossing over your pages on Hinduism and your discussions in chat, I notice that there is very little discussion of morality, as in the day to day application of one's religion, faith etc. What is the "fruit" of your religion? Is it a spiritual goal only, or should it have some result in secular life?
I can only correspond via e-mail, I hope this is alright.
Thanks,
Sean
Dear Sean,
Thanks so much for writing.
When the man in the Gospels asks Jesus "What shall I do to gain Eternal life?", Jesus replies, "Keep all the Commandments" (i.e. be moral and ethical in your daily behavior). But when the man persists, claiming that he has kept the commandments from his youth onward, THEN Jesus says "IF YOU WOULD BE PERFECT, give all that you own to the poor, take up your cross AND FOLLOW ME". Basically, we might say that Jesus was telling the man to be unselfish or SELFLESS. When we destroy the SELF, and become selfless or unselfish in the absolute extreme, then all commandments become extraneous, for they are automatically obeyed, since the fuel of ego and desire which powers unrighteousness and inequity as been eliminated.
Hobbes, in the Leviathan, wrote, "If men were ANGELS, there would be no need for laws or commandments or government". Commandments are an attempt to control our egoistic appetites and desires. We are driven to steal, covet, seduce, bear false witness and murder because we covet and desire or, in the case of murder, because we are jealous and angry. But such desire, jealousy and anger is FUELED by the notion of SELF.
We may remember Gandhi's words from his autobiograhy, explaining why he rejected Christianity: "I did not want simply to escape THE CONSEQUENCES of my sins, but rather I desired if possible to extinguish sin itself at its very source" (paraphrased).
Let us consider the very famous case of King David, who lusts after his best friend Uriah's only wife, Bathsheba. Stop and consider that David committed NOTHING IMMORAL on the surface of things. As King, it was his prerogative to send Uriah to the front lines of a battle (though knowing full well that Uriah would perish), and once Bathsheba was a widow, David was perfectly in his rights to marry her. From a purely legalistic viewpoint, David was not "immoral", and yet David SINNED, because his "heart was not right", and out of the evil of the imaginings of David's heart, he conspired to subvert law and morality and duty in a scheme to legally satisfy his base egocentric desires for pleasure and forbidden fruit. We are reminded here of the statment in Genesis (and elsewhere in the Bible), that it is the IMAGINATION of man which is wicked beyond all things.
see Wicked Imagination & The Knower of Hearts
http://www.zen-forum.com/a16/b2001/c02/d2/e94/z7
see Do not lean on THESE doors! - Page 268
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page268.htm
see The Euthyphro Problem - Page 401
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page401.htm
see Einstein's Physics Gap vs. Hume's Ethics Gap - Page 404
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page404.htm
also see:
http://www.socinian.org/Ethics.html
http://www.logan.com/afi/dec98.html )
Dear Sean:
I am sending you the URLs to various pages at my website which touch on the topic of morality and ethics. Here are some excerpts from those pages.
First, here is a post in response to the question "What does religion have to offer?" What does Religion have to offer?
Religious faith offers each person, young or old, these four things:
1. Hope, Peace, Purpose and Identity;
2. Hope for the future (Eternity),
3. Peace in each present moment,
4. Purpose for one's earthly life and existence, Personal Identity, Individuality and Uniqueness in face of the question "Who am I?".
Without religious faith in a higher power or dharma underlying existence, then each person is nothing, in the sense that at the moment of death they cease to exist, there is no ultimate consequence for any action or thought, we have come into being accidentally, our individual existence has no purpose or meaning, and had never come into being in our individual consciousness, it would ultimately make no difference since we are of no inherent value even to ourselves.
see Our Virtues Can Get Us Into Trouble, - Page 102
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page102.htm
see Anatomy of Sin - Page 399
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page399.htm
see Religion and Sexuality - Page 11
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page011.htm
see Religion and Homosexuality - Page 389
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page389.htm
see Teenage Girl Questions Sexual Morality - Page 293
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page293.htm
see Evolution & Ethics
http://www.sulekha.com/philosophy/messages/36616.html
see Vegetarians & ATTACK OF THE UBER-RACHNID - Page 382
http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan/page382.htm
Sean replies:
To me, moral relativism is to be avoided, there must be absolutes.
Sitaram says:
Aha, but (HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION) could you personally be moral in a world in which there ARE NO ABSOLUTES? And what would be your MOTIVE for being moral (remaining moral) in such a world of no absolutes? This is a most interesting question.
Sitaram says: Hmm..Does Sean Have Hidden Agenda?
http://www.sulekha.com/chpost.asp?forum=philosophy&show=0&cid=38975
Sean replies:
So, are you saying that it is your opinion that this world is without absolute morality?
There would be no motive to behaving morally if there weren't absolutes. Indeed, there would be little point to our existence without the existence of absolutes. Without absolutes, there is no God to set them. Without God, there is no purpose to us, we are merely an unfortunate (because of our self-awareness) animal doomed to die.
Sitaram, I must say two things to you, and please do not take offense:
1) Please refrain from using any form of Christian apologetics or Bible references, I am unsure why you are using them, though I do understand it was previously your religion. I am curious about your Hinduism and its practicality. Try to phrase responses purely through its tenets and writings. I am looking for AUTHORITY, not generalized philosophy.
2) As a teacher, you must learn succintness. You have given me more homework than I am willing to do.
Dear Sean,
It is now at 5:45am and I am thinking about our correspondence....
In one of your emails, you responded (paraphrasing from memory), "yes... it does seem at your website that 'anything goes'...." (i.e. that I do not stress morality)....
Thinking about the phrase 'anything goes', I am reminded about a news item this past year about fundamentalist Protestant groups who have a program for teens, to reduce the incidence of teenage premarital sexual activity... the news item showed inner-city teenagers dressed in white, walking up to the alter or minister, offering (or receiving a flower... I forget) and making a solemn pledge to abstain from sexual activity until marriage...
This news article went on to say that, for a large percentage of the teenagers making these vows, their sexual activity was delayed by as much as a year and a half, but ultimately, they broke their vows and became sexually active before marriage....
The one negative result of this program of vows was that, when those teenagers finally DID become sexually active, a much smaller number of them were prepared with birth control protection (since they assumed that they WOULD NOT engage in sex because of their vow... so when sex DID happen, they were unprepared) , and as a result, a higher percentage of vowing teenagers became pregnant, versus teens who did not participate in such ceremonies or vows....
The point that I am trying to make is that ANYTHING DOES GO (or go on if you will), quite literally, within those Abrahamic religions which espouse or profess an absolute morality.....
There are priests and ministers who are sexually immoral... there are Muslims who drink alcohol......
My point is, people are going to do whatever it is that they are going to do, sooner or later, whether or not I stand there and wag my finger at them moralizing about Ten Commandments, the wages of sin, and eternal punishment.....
Also the point I made in a previous email, that Abrahamic cultures and societies do not seem to be any better over the course of history than Buddhist or Hindu societies and cultures...
So given the fact of human nature that "anything goes," regardless of whether society preaches moral relativism or moral absolutism, therefore I feel that the manner in which I discuss things at my website is far more honest and realistic, namely, that souls will work out these behaviors during the course of their lives, and from rebirth to rebirth. Furthermore, the scenario which I present, of everything and everyone and every experience having its purpose, and of all souls ultimately being perfected and saved, is far more reasonable and efficient and reflective of a genuinely compassion Creator, in contrast to the senselessness of eternal torment and punishment with absolutely no hope of reform, and only one brief human life in which to "pass or fail" the test.....
Recycling, whether it be of bottles, paper or souls, is more sensible and environmentally sound that making everything DISPOSABLE, use one and throw it away... even in PHYSICS, the CONSERVATION of matter/energy is ESSENTIAL, FUNDAMENTAL (i.e. nothing is ever LOST).....
I am thinking right now about my webpage "How good does one have to be?" Rabbi Harold Kushner discusses the verse "therefore be thou PERFECT before me (Tamim)". Kushner proposes his own understanding that God did not expect Abraham to be PERFECT, but rather to be true to himself, so that when he did periodically "fall down", he would always pick himself up, dust himself off, and try harder, remaining "true to himself" (I am dredging this up from my memory, so it may be inaccurate).... and then Kushner mentions Mother Theresa's words (I think)... where she says , "We are not here to be SUCCESSFUL, but to be FAITHFUL"...
And consider the parable of the prodigal son, raised (presumably) in a society of ABSOLUTE morals, who takes his "inheritance," and goes to a foreign land (where they raise PIGS!), and squanders everything. Yet, it is only when the prodigal son hits ROCK BOTTOM, that the realization also hits him "Hey, I would be better as a hired hand in my father's house, than working for this cruel master slopping pigs"...
The points I am making is that, even in societies of MORAL ABSOLUTISM, boys will be boys, and people still sin and break commandments, and FURTHERMORE, it is somehow the experience of sinning and then repenting (a learning process), that makes Sauls into Pauls, makes King David write the beautiful Psalms, and makes thieves on the cross cry out "Remember me, O Lord, in Thy kingdom"......
Well, now it is 6:10am ... so I shall post this
Best regards,
Sitaram
Sitaram writes:
I have read your most recent response,.... and I am getting a better feeling for what you are looking for....
his has been most enjoyable... writing about these things.... I will say I am a bit tired.... but it is what I enjoy doing....
being a bit tired now... this is going to be sort of stream-of-consciousness off the top of my head.....
I do know that somewhere in my website (cant find it right now).... I make some statements about Hinduism which are pertinent to your question.... I say that people like Gandhi and Mother Theresa are as "addicted" and irresistibly drawn to non-violence and charity as drug addicts and prostitutes are drawn to their activities.... and that furthermore... there is some purpose for what each person is doing (prostitute or Mother Theresa), i.e. they are working out karma (their karma is ripening)....
I'm groping for words to express my emerging thoughts.... Western Abrahamic religions "speak from Authority" as you say, with non-relativistic Absolutes in Morality.... (Thou shalt do this and thou shalt not do that.... or else)....
whereas, in Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism et.al ..... it is all a PROCESS, i.e. karmically the rewards and punishments are all built into the "physics" of the thoughts, words and deeds.... but furthermore.... the whole process of countless rebirths is an unavoidable process of purification... in each lifetime (rebirth), we are working out the knots and wrinkles so to speak, sometimes as a thief, sometimes as a holy renunciate... but the sum total of these rebirths, of this karmic pinball machine, ultimately leads to Moksha, Liberation, Salvation, re-union with the Divinity, no more rebirth.... and furthermore,.... ultimately all souls are "saved". This does NOT mean that Hindu/Buddhist Karma is moral relativism.... it simply means that things are not as simple or cut-and-dry as not eating pork, tithing, circumcision, praying 5 times per day, baptism, or going on Hajj pilgrimage, not farting in the Mosque, etc etc etc.....
You must admit too, that eastern Karma takes into account things like lions, tigers, bears, pigs, cockroaches (i.e. all other lifeforms)... whereas in Abrahamic religions, the animals seem to be extraneous, except for sacrificial animals, and food, and they pass away or disappear with the Resurrection and Judgment....
In a sense, this karmic "process" which I am describing is very scientific.... when compared to all the circumcision/baptism mumbo-jumbo of Abrahamic religions, which seems rather arbitrary, and leaves out people like the Australian aborigines who never got to meet a priest or an imam or a rabbi until the 19th century.....
of course... when you look at the entire history of the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain peoples, they seem far more humble and gentle than the history of Islam and Christianity, with slavery, wars of colonial aggression, genocides, crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings, religious persecutions.... When one looks at the history of Abrahamic peoples, in comparison to Hindus and Buddhists, it would seem that your ABSOLUTES and your Authority and your non-relative Morality are a huge failure...
different but related thought....
look at the "sinfulness" of Saul before he became St. Paul.... (Saul was present and partly responsible for the murder of very first Christian martyr, St. Stephan, a deacon)....
Saul/Paul's conversion has uncanny parallels with Valmiki, who was a thief and murderer, but repented and went on to write the Ramayan (which is sort of the Hindu version of the Gospels, except that Ram is the incarnation, not Jesus)...
And it was King David's repentance over Uriah's murder which produced the 51st Psalm...(Have mercy on me, according to thy great mercy....)..... I know you are going to be angry with me for mentioning the Bible.... but if you notice in my website... its what i do,... its my "thing".... its how my mind works.... so I hope you can be patient with me....
I am trying to point out that both in Hinduism and in Christianity, sometimes hitting rock bottom (Immorality) can lead to repentance... which may then produce morality, and even a Saint.....
I am rambling a bit here....
I do sense a Christian hidden in you, trying to come out..... there is something which is slightly bothering you about Christianity, so you are looking around to "convince" yourself that other things (like Hinduism) are really inferior..... (this is just my "take" on what is going on with you... I could be wrong, but I am being honest).... and all this is OK.... but I will say that you are approaching this inquiry not totally open minded, but with some preconceived notions, or prejudices if you will....
of course... it make no difference to me personally what you become.... I mean, I have no vested interest in converting anyone to anything.....
Well,... I am quite tired now.... I really want to say much more.... I am trying to put my thoughts together in some articulate form.... but we may continue our dialogues as long as you like....
As my own thoughts crystallize and take shape.... I shall try to provide you with the formal statements which you desire.... but you must be patient.... for this is the way my mind works....
Best regards,
Sitaram
http://www.sulekha.com/chpost.asp?forum=philosophy&show=0&cid=38985
(Sean writes)
Asterisks (***) highlights Sitaram's previous post comments
***hmmm.... im groping for words to express my emerging thoughts.... Western
***Abrahamic religions "speak from Authority" as you say, with non-relativistic
***Absolutes in Morality.... (Thou shalt do this and thou shalt not do that....
***or else)....
Sean writes: I am sorry, I didn't quite mean it like that. One of my most basic problems is that personal sincerity of belief does not make that belief TRUE. Therefore, righteous individuals include Mother Theresa, the Pope, abortionist killers, the pilots of the jets flying the planes that went into your twin towers, etc. Which ones are following their religions correctly? All of them. Which ones are purveyors of the REAL God? I don't know. Actually, maybe you have a point here, maybe it is "authoritarian" religions that cause all the problems. But what if one of them has the REAL authority? :-)
Is this what drove you from your Christianity? The whole reason I am asking you these questions is because you came from a Christian background, but obviously felt compelled to do something else.
This brings up a whole other issue which I don't really want to delve into extensively. Human overpopulation is a major problem, though it is not officially recognized as such yet. India is one of the world's most populous nations and is the home of Hinduism. Does it not make sense to limit our growth to protect the animals around us? I think that the world population should actually be around 100 million maximum. That way we can live comfortably without fear of nature being unable to support us.
Your karmic process has no apparent divine revelation to indicate its supernal truth. Of course, just because a book says that God came and revealed himself to man doesn't mean that it is true either.
My only problem with you using the Bible for illustrations is that it makes it very
unclear as to what you do believe. It does not make me angry at all, just confused.
This is a common theme. A man does not truly know his sinful nature until he is forced to
confront it. Like I said previously, I believe that the Bible does describe us quite well.
You wrote that you sense a Christian inside me trying to come out. Looking for birth
perhaps.... Nah. I want God to come and get me, so that I can know, not just believe. I do
not want to go to my deathbed knowing that what I believe could inherently be wrong.
Sean writes: Not quite correct, I really just want truth in God. Everybody has their own
story, and I am truly tired of it. I have been seeking after this consciously and
unconsciously since I was 4 years old. The deeper I get, the less clear it all is.
My "closed" mind is due to the fact that I have percieved Christianity to work well when
adhered to. It has nothing to do with any special spiritual awareness on my part. It does
seem to me that a supernal authority would be superior to concepts in Hinduism, but only
because I DO want there to be an arbiter, a final judgement. Again I am faced with the
futility of "seeking my own way", because it is inherently fallible.
What I really want is for Michael Landon (i.e. an angel) to come and tell me the truth.
BTW, I really do appreciate your efforts in this. Please get some rest.
Crispin: Sean says he is confused, and he is asking for a Guru ( though he writes a
specific name - Michael Landon) to show him the truth/path
Sitaram: Ha ha.... Michael Landon was in a movie.... which I did not see, but in the
movie Michael Landon is an angel or something... Sean is making a joke
Crispin: yeah - exactly...... but he DESIRES that,..... he wants an angel ( which I would
call a Siddha ) to show him the path....thats interesting to me. ........
Crispin: I have heard that it is said that in the Upanishads that a blind cannot show the
path to another blind ...... how much ever we study and grasp all that we can - We all are
still Blind to a finite extent ......
Sitaram: True, I suppose. But who is it that shows (enlightens) your Guru... or any
Guru... you see the problem?
Crispin: No - it is said the Guru shows up when the time comes.... it is our surrender
and craving for the Guru that we place before the Lord that will make us realize us the
presence of the Guru near us
Sitaram: Well... except any physical guru is a person just like us.... they were
babies... they were sometimes naughty children.... they had sexual feelings to cope with...
they got angry somtimes... etc etc etc
Sitaram: Where shall we send Sean to find a Guru? And if there were a Guru for Sean....
would Sean really want that? Sean has his own stubborn ways!
Sitaram: A Guru is good for YOU, Crispin, because you are at a stage of development where
you SEEK a Guru.
Sitaram: Bhakti (devotion) to a personal form of God is good for someone who is in the
condition where they SEEK that....but it is not good for all.
Sitaram: for others.... impersonal divinity, and jnana is what is good, because they are
at a stage to seek THAT
Crispin: Yes - true indeed
Sitaram: and we cannot send the entire world to one city in south India,... not all 6
billion... (there would be a sewage problem)
Crispin: and neither am I ready... its just that the thought has occurred and we seem to
be in a similar state
Sitaram: you know... I am thinking of Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, his final words at
death
Sitaram: Seek with all diligence.... and be a lamp unto yourselves (paraphrasing from
memory)
Sitaram: Buddha did not advocate Gurus,.... yet today, millions think of Buddha as their
Guru (in a fashion)
Crispin: This doesnt mean that he never had a Guru ...... he might have had one in His
previous births...... Of course, what the Buddha says is true - but the only aspect is that
Sitaram: even the 10th Sikh Guru proclaimed that there would be no future human Gurus,
but that the scriptures Adi Granth would be Guru.
Crispin: At certain stages for everybody, we do feel the need for one ..... yes - those
Gurus are different from the one u talk about - they are Gurus to Humanity ...... but are
not personal Gurus to all...... but of course, I dont advocate that everyone should start
looking for one...
Crispin: a few yrs down the line - I would have dismissed this idea too ..... but now - I
feel I require one .....
Sitaram: in a sense, when we seek a personal Guru, or when we seek grace and forgiveness
and redemption through "salvation", we are looking for an "easy way out"
Sitaram: I am not saying "do not seek a guru"
Sitaram: I am saying "keep things in perspective"
Crispin: EASY WAY OUT.... True.....Why would anyone want to take the toughest route
Crispin: only if found ELIGIBLE... the Destination can never be obtained
Crispin: I realized that Karma Yoga suited me better
Crispin: then realized that I falter even in that .... then towards Bhakti -
Crispin: again I realized that I wasnt able to adhere to my ways 24 hrs a day ..... I
still had a lot of ego and I was taking quite a few wrong decisions and sinning of my own
Crispin: thats when I felt the need for the Guru
Sitaram: a flame is ever flickering, wavering.... yet this inconstancy does not mean that
the flame give no light
Crispin: True, but I now know that the flame CAN give light
Sitaram: consciousness is energy
Sitaram: divinity is consciousness
Sitaram: it is the nature of energy to fluctuate (flicker)
Sitaram: seek that coming-to-be and passing-away which ITSELF does not come to be nor
pass away
Sitaram: an infinite circle has its center EVERYWHERE, but its circumference NOWHERE
Crispin: ok so ?
Sitaram: you want easy answer
Crispin: you mean the easy way out ?
Sitaram: easy means easy... no work
Crispin: I never said no work
Sitaram: If a Guru is perfect... and the guru perfects YOU , then YOU must become Guru
Crispin: EXACTLY
Crispin: True indeed
Sitaram: yes... Jesus says.... "those who come after me shall do GREATER works than I
Crispin: who is a Guru now and who WAS perfected
Crispin: I have met him only once
Sitaram: and yet, it is said, a student may not be greater than his teacher
Crispin: True - but the student can Equal the Teacher
Crispin: if the Teacher wills so
Crispin: and the student is Graced
Crispin: but I still dunno if He is my Guru.... if He is, I will get to realize that
.....
Sitaram: daily life with ANYONE, a spouse, a parent, a child, a teacher, means INTIMACY,
and involves some measure of disillusionment or disappointment
Sitaram: live with your Guru each day for 10 years, and then tell me of his perfection
Crispin: Sure only that I am not yet ripe enough to do that
Sitaram: so, what would YOU like to tell Sean, to help him in his "confusion"
Crispin: TO stick to Christ and have full faith in Him and not worry about other concepts
..... and go about living his life doing his duties and showing his love for Christ
Crispin: Because in His heart - Sean wants the angel's answer to be " The Christian path
is the right one" - so he should go ahead in his path and not worry about others......
Sitaram: yes... you are correct I think
Crispin: and He will make progress
Sitaram: he is asking questions, but he wants to hear only a certain answer
Crispin: Exactly..... something that even I want
Sitaram: many seek out somone who will tell them what they WANT to hear
Crispin: even though I know what I say cant be generalized - its a Huge BOOST to my EGO
(atleast apparently) if someone on the other side says something that I want to hear
.........
Crispin: and I would consider him as my Guru....
Crispin: at the same time, its very very difficult to find one.... but hope lingers....
Sitaram: so, we look OUTSIDE of ourselves, and yet it is always SELF that we seek
Crispin: yes - some external all knowing force that hurts and refines the ego and
dissolves it..... the experience that Vivekananda once had from Ramakrishna, where
Ramakrishna throws up an illusion where Naren finds himself and his ego so puny in the
entire Creation.... of course, it didnt cure him eternally but it prepared Naren to become
Swami Vivekananda
Sitaram: Good example, yet, who was Guru for Ramakrishna?
The world is transformed with words, one person at a time.
***something which is slightly bothering you about Christianity, so you are
***looking around to "convince" yourself that other things (like Hinduism) are
***really inferior..... (this is just my "take" on what is going on with you...
***I could be wrong, but I am being honest).... and all this is OK.... but I
***will say that you are approaching this inquiry not totally open minded, but
***with some preconceived notions, or prejudices if you will....
6 : A GURU FOR SEAN:
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License.